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Rule 17 and pc
 
Цитата
StellaMaris wrote:
a) like always windward has to keep clear, doesn't and breaks R11.
In the current revision of the rules of e-regatta Rule 17 takes precedence over Rule 11. Therefore, the leeward boat is required to be 'keep clear'.

Цитата
StellaMaris wrote:
b) StellaMaris is row but limited to a proper course, not changing course and sailing on a proper course.
c) When, owing to a difference of opinion about a leeward boat’s proper course, two boats on the same tack converge, the windward boat must keep clear. So there has to be a value that is not "true", whatever that should mean. Course to mark is nonsense, so ... that courses to Offsetmark are not correct valued in stating proper or not.
In real racing it does not matter what course is going to move the leeward boat. At the time of the overlap (begins from clear astern) she must change her course promptly to the mark, following:
1. R17

2. R11.

Special for Jette.


Цитата
StellaMaris wrote:
So what is not correct on such a course?
Usefull tip in the e-regatta - the white line ('proper course') must be below the red/green line. :D

Изменено: m-1 - 21.03.2015 09:16:40
 
HI m-1,
guess we had that before, a windwardboat doesnt get a row boat and a leeward doesnt get a keepclearboat per definition.
The leeward gets limited to a course not to sail higher than her proper course , not more and the windward may bear down to the leewards proper course not more.

If windward bears off more than the others proper course there is a converging course between wind - and leeward and windward has to keep clear.

Цитата
Usefull tip in the e-regatta - the white line ('proper course') must be below the red/green line.

the courseindicator white is under the red line.

I know you favour the CallBook, it still is not authoritative in Fleetraces.

Cases and Calls
The ISAF publishes interpretations of the racing rules in The Case Book for 2013–2016 and recognizes them as authoritative interpretations and explanations of the rules. It also publishes The Call Book for Match Racing for 2013–2016 and The Call Book for Team Racing for 2013–2016, and it recognizes them as authoritative only for umpired match or team racing. These publications are available on the ISAF website.

So special for you

Rule 17, On the Same Tack; Proper Course
CASE 7
When, after having been clear astern, a boat becomes overlapped to leeward within two of her hull lengths of the other boat, the windward boat must keep clear, but the leeward boat must initially give the windward boat room to keep clear and must not sail above her proper course.
CASE 13
Before her starting signal, a leeward boat does not break a rule by sailing a course higher than the windward boat’s course.
CASE 14
When, owing to a difference of opinion about a leeward boat’s proper course, two boats on the same tack converge, the windward boat must keep clear. Two boats on the same leg sailing near one another may have different proper courses.
CASE 46
A leeward boat is entitled to sail up to her proper course, even when she has established a leeward overlap from clear astern and within two of her hull lengths of the windward boat.

Цитата
In the current revision of the rules of e-regatta Rule 17 takes precedence over Rule 11. Therefore, the leeward boat is required to be 'keep clear'.
So that is another e.regata special then. SecA contains the "ROW-Rules", SecB the General Limitations, so R17 limits but doesnt change the row rules. To add the rest Sec C contain Special Limitations at Marks and Obstructions, while all Rules from A and B are still working.

MY question was more thinking of absence of other boasts I would sail safe from buoy and go on my pc after gybing or bearing off, to maintain the possibiltity to gybe safe its nonsense to sail closest to the mark, so going wider in and lower out is sure a safe and fast way to round there and getting on the left side of the course too, but that may depend on the windshifts then.
In that scenes positions between mark and buoy define a course and not windchanges. Being 5 boatlength away from the mark i know how I want to round and wont change my course on a windshift of 1 to 5 ° but sail as I wanted to round.

Therefore there could be a ruling based on positions and not on TWA s.
In a three boatlength circle aiming for a point one boatlength above mark could be a hint. You may need the rest room to buoy in R18 scenarios to keep free from buoy and others then.
Adding a +/- to a twa of like 90° there would be a way to define more than one angle, but there was the disadvantage of not seeing the relative position of the leeward to mark. I think just comparing TWAs to cover R17 there, is not the best way and as long as the leeward doesnt luff the windward to an unproper course windward has to be keep-clear-boat and sure isnt row.

Last, I still understand this RulesForums as one that could be read and maybe to detect things that could be changed and not as a forum to get right or not,as there never was an exonerating or modifying of results afterwards. So just a forum of interest and therefore thx to you m-1, as an always reacting reader!! ;)

Jette
 
M1 precise and deadly --- :) Stella Maris in the illustrated case you are not right
 
observes the wheelbase boat in the wind ... watch your (right penalty ') if the distance was the same reason you would
 


When overlap begins StellaMaris is sailing below her proper course and Jenny is sailing a converging course (4° below SM s pc) and breaking R17 there already.

Watch the courseindicator , red line and Jenny's course.
Different than in the Casebook the boats are not sailing on a 30° differing course and/or way above proper course.

So "short and deadly" is a) a worthless characterizing, b) wrong c) just from a claquer

Jenny remains keep-clear-boat and doesnt fulfill the requirements of keeping clear by definition, at the moment she got overlapped she needed to luff to the windwards proper course. On waters she would get a protest here and needed to spin already.


Keep Clear
A boat keeps clear of a right-of-way boat
(a) if the right-of-way boat can sail her course(... in this case proper course) with no need to take avoiding action and,
(b) when the boats are overlapped, if the right-of-way boat can also change course in both directions without immediately making contact .

Due to conditions, drift to mark, etc.,aiming for mark is no proper course at all and Stella Maris is sailing on on a proper course.

When proper means the course a boat would sail in the absence of others to sail a fastest, then
"To reach the next mark" doesnt mean to hit it but to sail to the position in markzone that allows a fast and seamanlike rounding thinking of a proper rounding and not the closest possible rounding.

Jette

p.s.: to police.....as a sailor one should know the relevance of "length" ( german: Länge läuft, engl.: Length is running )!
 
Цитата
StellaMaris wrote:
Due to conditions, drift to mark, etc., aiming for mark is no proper course at all and Stella Maris is sailing on on a proper course.


Imagine that at the real protest judge guided explanations of three boats and approved the final scheme.
Jette, which the course they have identified as the 'proper' for your boat - pc1 or pc2? ;)
...
 
M1..... Poseidon..... :) right question
 
Цитата

Imagine that at the real protest judge guided explanations of three boats and approved the final scheme.
Wow, creating new pseudo-pro-terminology? What for? To make more impression on guys like "police" ?

Sweet how he imitates "short and deadly" : " "M1..... Poseidon..... right question " " ! Cant nearly await his answer!

Just go back to the pic where overlap beginns and you can answer that question yourself!
Although it s still not right to take a CallBook TR in Fleetraces, the second sentence fr om the Answer TR Call F3 gives the hint and the last sentence clears both boats obligations. Maybe a term like " to sail close to it " helps too as it doesnt mean" to sail to it", as later to be "at the mark" doesnt mean to be in the position of the buoy and another like "in the existing conditions" ( 12.7 to11.5 kts at 90° TWA, currents ?? and a distance of 60m to buoy) makes a buoy-bearing irrelevant.

As long as one does'nt mix up keep-clear and right-of -way, even demi-gods should be able to let them what they are, one will find a possible answer, especially when that "point" left symbolizes the center of the markzone and one sticks to the definition "A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term." And as its Weather- to Offsetmark and the place to set the Asymetrical that too plays a role in a real protest but not with a drawn line from boatposition to buoy.

.. forget Whammer, she is a) not overlapped and no rule forces her to sail a whatever (proper or not) course at that moment,
b) faster than Jenny and will be clear ahead in zone and gaining markroom-rights later.

back to real protest....Jenny breaks R17 already before contact when she forces row to bear off! And if there were doubts about a pc she too had to keep clear and that is described in CASE 14 , wh ere you too can find an explanation of leeward being row in a R17 scenario, as she was able to break R16.1 on a too fast luffing.
 
Цитата
StellaMaris wrote:
Wow, creating new pseudo-pro-terminology? What for?

Main. My desire - to show everyone that I do not always try to manipulate the mind as usually do 'pseudo' judge. To see this, it suffices to take a closer look my messages...

In the disputed situation, I must say more clearly: I do not argue that Jenny did not breaks the R11. But.

In your place, Jette, I would not provoke internal umpire - I would have changed my course: a couple of degrees steering away from the wind (bear off/away). Voila. Jeny would receive a penalty under Rule 11.
That's what should solve problems for strong players...

Rules of e-regatta are not perfect. Why? - Because the RRS ISAF - to the same extent not perfect and can not be interpreted for everyone understandable way.

So, we have to ... adapt. :!:
 
Hi m-1, i can see that e-regata engine works at moment as it does. The point was to give a few thoughts on what would be possible too in trying to understand the rules.

So i guess we agree now that a windward boat in a R17 scenario still is a keep-clear-boat (see Decision Case 14) and a leeward boat a limited row-boat.

Sure it might not be the best to provoke an "internal umpire", but as I like to stick to concrete scenarios and data:

Changing course to bear under mark? No need as being on a proper course.

Anticipating that Jenny needed a bit bearing off in a leftshift while already on Gennaker and would break R17? No need to anticipate !
(Case27).

De-establish overlap to a "faster" on Gennaker "reaching" and converging boat? Same answers.

The answer is clearly given in the Decission of a real protest (RYA 1966/3) being basis of Case 14:

Decision
When, owing to a difference of opinion on the proper course to be sailed, two boats on the same tack converge, W is bound by rule 11 to keep clear and by rule 14 to avoid contact.
This case illustrates the fact that two boats on the same leg sailing very near to one another can have different proper courses. Which of two different courses is the faster one to the next mark can not be determined in advance and is not necessarily proven by one boat or the other reaching the next mark ahead.

and as not limited by R18

Proper Course
A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term.

and not

Proper Course
A course a boat would sail to the next mark as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term.

:idea:
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