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R18.2b not applied correctly, Jibing at the finish - not proper course, but unfair attempt to draw a penalty
 
Race4819 - 4:29:00
Iceberk has finished at the left end of the line.
At the right end of the line, BeteNoir to leeward & very slightly ahead of 7321.

At 4:30:00 7321 reaches the zone overlapped inside BeteNoir. At this point there is about one boat-length between BeteNoir and 7321 so there is plenty of room for 7321 to sail to the line and leave the mark on the required side.

However, at 4:31:00 7321 has jibed onto port! The RE applies R16, and then INCORRECTLY applies R18.2b.

Under R18.4 7321 is entitled to jibe, if that is her proper course to sail to the mark, which it was not. R18.2b entitles 7321 to mark-room - i.e. "room to sail to the mark."

Her only intention in jibing onto port was clearly to unfairly draw a penalty, fully aware that the RE does not get this situation right...

I regret that I am not able to supply screen-shots of the incident - I play on a tablet, and I browse the forum on a desktop...
 
Цитата
BeteNoir wrote:
... her proper course to sail to the mark...
?
_____

Read pls:
"Because the finishing mark is not a rounding mark, mark-room for Blue (7321) in this situation is room to leave the mark on the required side..."
(ISAF MR CALL K4 (MR 40))

So,
- 7321 is inside boat and have protection by R18.2b;
- 7321 is not required to go to the mark;
- 7321 will be exonerated if at the same time break the R16.1 in the Zone (R21a)...

I think that ER-umpire assigned the correct penalty!
Sorry, BeteNoir.
 
....takes a bit time till contact takes place, Bete, therefore u should have reacted, intentionally i think u r right. 7321 needed to leave mark on port and there was room to do that but gybing might have been the faster way . in the other post i mentioned 12 naturally ment 15 just overread that misstyping. While gybing there is no angle to fulfill a gybe, that can be 179° or . . . , so when the main is filled with wind on the other board and very different compared with tacking and the need to bear off to chc. Her coursechange is switched off being a boat entitled to room/markroom, so....
take the penalty for breaking R18.2b, as she would be exonerated for breaking a rule of SecA, R15 or R16.
An even colourchanging courseindicator of 7321 plays no role here.



Taking Call K4 from Matchracing, from a book that has no guilty here and with a totally different situation, in which a penalty outstanding boat and a finishing boat change row in markzone and the mark is a boat, looks strange ( most will know the difference between a mark to round and a finishlinebuoy) and using single parts of sentences out of it and colouring them, looks nice, but doesnt make it more relevant. Its still fleetracing with an own e-regata-rules-setup which sure doesnt cover all cases, calls or whatever and R18.2b is simply what is needed here, being able to handle R14 would be an improvement, especially this running (~ rectangularly) through other boats.
 
Цитата
Jette KYC wrote:
... looks strange (most will know the difference between a mark to round and a finish line buoy)...
Really??? :D
__________

 
Цитата
BeteNoir wrote:
Race4819 -
At 4:30:00 7321 reaches the zone overlapped inside BeteNoir. At this point there is about one boat-length between BeteNoir and 7321 so there is plenty of room for 7321 to sail to the line and leave the mark on the required side.


Yes, you're right - BeteNoir gives Mark-Room for 7321:

There 7321 has room for “to leave a mark on the required side” therefore BeteNoir does not break R18.2.



7321 breaking R10 and she can not be exonerated under R21 because she is not sailing within the room which she is entitled. (see Cases 25, 70, 11 8)
 


R18.2 applies and doesnt forbid luffing for the inside boat on port. R21 exonerates R10,R11, 12, 13, 15, 16 and 31.
There is time and place to react for BeteNoir to avoid that contact.

Case 25 talks about two boats on same tack and proper course, isnt relevant.
Case70 about two boasts on same tack and R11, isnt relevant.
Case11 about obstruction-scenarios, isnt relevant.

Drink a beer with 7321 and ask if it was a planned tactical manouvre or just the try to hit!
a)tactics give him a cheerio
b) not sure let him pay
c)just to hit give him whatever u need to do!
 
Цитата
Jette KYC wrote:


R18.2 applies and doesnt forbid luffing for the inside boat on port. R21 exonerates R10,R11, 12, 13, 15, 16 and 31.


R18.2 doesnt forbid anyone anything. It is required only the outside boat to give mark-room for the inside boat. In our case (at the finishing mark) it is only "Room for a boat to leave a mark on the required side. " and outside boat (BeteNoir ) does so.
Also R18.2 not give ROW for insaidboat. In our case ROWboat is outsaidboat (by R10)

R21 exonerates a boat only if she is sailing within the room or mark-room to which she is entitled.

Цитата
Jette KYC wrote:
Case 25 talks about
Case70 about
Case11 118 about

All these cases («11 + Smile» wrote Forum’s editor , I wrote «118») about R18.2 and punishment inside the boat for breaking a rule of Section A – the same thing that we encounter in our case.
Also its cases about definition "Room" & mark-room and R21 - see its here


Цитата
Jette KYC wrote:
Drink abeer with 7321

Meybe it would be better read the definition "Room"? ;)
 
@m-1 - if this were a match race you would be quite correct and I'd agree with you, but we were only "match-racing" within a fleet race...

@umpire's mate - I congratulate you on your perspicacity... 8)

@jette - yes - if I could have reacted in time, I should have tried to jibe & stay away. I might have been able to finish before she could luff and hit me... I considered whether she could argue that her proper course (i.e.-the fastest way to finish in the absence of other boats...) was to jibe onto port - the wind had shifted and port would be favored - but I say that the jibe only slowed her down and cost her precious milliseconds from what would have otherwise been a very close finish on starboard...
And moreover, I say that she wasn't entitled to jibe onto port in this situation.

The finish line mark couldn't accurately be described as an "obstruction" - neither of us had to change course substantially to clear it - so Case 11 wouldn't apply...

I think Case25 does apply - "When an inside overlapped windward boat that is entitled to mark-room takes more space than she is entitled to, she must keep clear of the outside leeward boat..." (emphasis mine)

As does Case70 - "An inside overlapped windward boat that is entitled to mark-room from the outside boat must keep clear of the outside boat and, if she is sailing outside of the mark-room to which she is entitled, she is not exonerated if she fails to keep clear."

But Case118 makes it clear - "In the definition Mark-Room, the phrase ‘room to sail to the mark’ means space to sail promptly in a seaman-like way to a position close to, and on the required side of, the mark."

In real life, we would have a beer & talk about it - 7321's maneuver would have disrupted both boats (maybe caused a little damage...) but I probably still would have finished before her, and if we couldn't agree, we MIGHT have had it out in the protest room...
 

Following your logic, BeteNoir, the Blue boat won't be considered as the violator by fleet race rules at ... finish mark?
 
It s a finish no markrounding , so no rule tells her to sail close to the mark and no rule tells her to finish on whatever tack. So what we take fr om the definition markroom is the first sentence. The phrases to sail "close to the mark" or "to sail to the mark" are of no interest here as she does not need to round that one and no rule says wh ere she has to cross the finish line, just from the right side between the marks.

Case118 doesnt apply , as she is not forced to finish at or sail to the mark.

Needing a case read case21.
Цитата
Meybe it would be better read the definition "Room"? ;)
Do that, umpire and especially read the first case under the definitions "Room", page 13.


Keep it simple works mostly better than looking for not relevant scenarios, paying attention to the word "Also" you will recognize the following is of no interest, as her proper course is not to sail close to it and as she doesn t need to round the mark

Mark-Room

Room for a boat to leave a mark on the required side. Also,
(a) room to sail to the mark when her proper course is to sail close to it, and
(b) room to round the mark as necessary to sail the course.
However, mark-room for a boat does not include room to tack unless she is overlapped inside and to windward of the boat required to give mark-room and she would be fetching the mark after her tack .


7321 is in the protected zone, not forced to sail close to the mark, acting seamanlike on that windconditions sailing on port and still leaves the mark on the required side. How would it have been for u if she had been on that course already for longer, approaching the finishline on port being inside markzone. Would u have reacted or just yelled Starboard?

And a last question is why staying on starboardtack instead of gybing outside the zone, what would make R16 a risk for 7321, and cross the line to win the race?
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